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	<title>Comments on: On &quot;Deconversion&quot;</title>
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	<description>developing the mind of Christ</description>
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		<title>By: Joel Alicea-Perichi</title>
		<link>http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/on-deconversion/#comment-1337</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Alicea-Perichi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 May 2011 17:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=12#comment-1337</guid>
		<description>cker&#039;s post is a prime example of the futility of non-christian reasoning and thought.  During his or her&#039;s irrelevant ramblings about God&#039;s choice in miracles and self-revelation, he presumably wants the reader to garner a conclusive argument against the Christian faith without actually providing one.  He eschews the epistemological and metaphysical difficulties inherent in any schema of unbelief, then expects his words to have any meaning and/or relevance to the topic at hand.  Priceless.  None of the Scriptural issues he cites are arguments against the Biblical position.  More fundamentally, his slew of objections both presuppose a disparate epistemology to the one presented in Scripture, while simultaneously presupposing the exact content he rejects, namely, God&#039;s revelation as the objective standard for interpretation of reality.  God has certainly made foolish the &quot;wisdom&quot; of this world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cker&#8217;s post is a prime example of the futility of non-christian reasoning and thought.  During his or her&#8217;s irrelevant ramblings about God&#8217;s choice in miracles and self-revelation, he presumably wants the reader to garner a conclusive argument against the Christian faith without actually providing one.  He eschews the epistemological and metaphysical difficulties inherent in any schema of unbelief, then expects his words to have any meaning and/or relevance to the topic at hand.  Priceless.  None of the Scriptural issues he cites are arguments against the Biblical position.  More fundamentally, his slew of objections both presuppose a disparate epistemology to the one presented in Scripture, while simultaneously presupposing the exact content he rejects, namely, God&#8217;s revelation as the objective standard for interpretation of reality.  God has certainly made foolish the &#8220;wisdom&#8221; of this world.</p>
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		<title>By: cker</title>
		<link>http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/on-deconversion/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>cker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=12#comment-236</guid>
		<description>Hey but how do you prove the uncanny similarity between the life and teachings of Jesus and that of Mithraism. Baptism, the Lord&#039;s supper et all find their origin in the practices followed by the Mithra worshippers. What makes you think the Gospel writers gave us nothing but the gospel truth? If the Christian God is a God of clarity, I&#039;m sure &#039;He&#039; wouldn&#039;t leave behind so many reasons for many to raise eyebrows, as far as the scriptures are concerned. And more importantly, if the scriptures are to be taken as the literal truth, why isn&#039;t your God performing the &#039;great and mighty&#039; miracles He so conveniently flaunts to the &#039;chosen people&#039;. Have you realised your God is incredibly shrinking with the passing of time? Initially, He brought billions of galaxies into existence by a mere thought, then it was the Noah&#039;s flood, which if you notice, amounts to nothing in the cosmic spectrum. Moving on, He decides to impress the &#039;chosen guys&#039; by parting a teeny little sea. Thousands of years later, He converts water into wine and that&#039;s supposed to have us be in awe of him!!!! Why don&#039;t we witness the &#039;marvellous&#039; hand of the Lord as prophesied in the scriptures. Didn&#039;t He promise &#039;we&#039; would perform greater miracles? And even a remote allusion to the fact that it&#039;s our own shortcoming that has prevented it from happening, is futile, because there are people out there who have suffered for Christ, led a life of faith (mountain-moving stuff). Show me one proof that will corroborrate what the Bible promises to do, didn&#039;t the Lord himself say so? &lt;br/&gt;Also, about your ramblings on epistemology and metaphysics, I think the Lord should take note  that an average man will only see the conspicuousness of the errors in the Bible or the unfair and downgrading practices aimed at women, God-breathed of course. If am a rational person, I will use the same means to put the Bible to test, not by any complex understanding of absolute philosophy where everything can be justified on fair grounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey but how do you prove the uncanny similarity between the life and teachings of Jesus and that of Mithraism. Baptism, the Lord&#8217;s supper et all find their origin in the practices followed by the Mithra worshippers. What makes you think the Gospel writers gave us nothing but the gospel truth? If the Christian God is a God of clarity, I&#8217;m sure &#8216;He&#8217; wouldn&#8217;t leave behind so many reasons for many to raise eyebrows, as far as the scriptures are concerned. And more importantly, if the scriptures are to be taken as the literal truth, why isn&#8217;t your God performing the &#8216;great and mighty&#8217; miracles He so conveniently flaunts to the &#8216;chosen people&#8217;. Have you realised your God is incredibly shrinking with the passing of time? Initially, He brought billions of galaxies into existence by a mere thought, then it was the Noah&#8217;s flood, which if you notice, amounts to nothing in the cosmic spectrum. Moving on, He decides to impress the &#8216;chosen guys&#8217; by parting a teeny little sea. Thousands of years later, He converts water into wine and that&#8217;s supposed to have us be in awe of him!!!! Why don&#8217;t we witness the &#8216;marvellous&#8217; hand of the Lord as prophesied in the scriptures. Didn&#8217;t He promise &#8216;we&#8217; would perform greater miracles? And even a remote allusion to the fact that it&#8217;s our own shortcoming that has prevented it from happening, is futile, because there are people out there who have suffered for Christ, led a life of faith (mountain-moving stuff). Show me one proof that will corroborrate what the Bible promises to do, didn&#8217;t the Lord himself say so? <br />Also, about your ramblings on epistemology and metaphysics, I think the Lord should take note  that an average man will only see the conspicuousness of the errors in the Bible or the unfair and downgrading practices aimed at women, God-breathed of course. If am a rational person, I will use the same means to put the Bible to test, not by any complex understanding of absolute philosophy where everything can be justified on fair grounds.</p>
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		<title>By: Bnonn</title>
		<link>http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/on-deconversion/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Bnonn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=12#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Hi Jen---&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To better understand what I said above, I&#039;d recommend reading the three series stapled in the sidebar. They lay a fair bit of groundwork which will help to answer questions you may have. I&#039;m sure they will in turn provoke more questions, as  they&#039;re by no means comprehensive, so feel free to ask for clarification where necessary.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regarding marijuana, I haven&#039;t studied this issue in much depth, so I can&#039;t give you a fully-formulated answer. I&#039;m not familiar with any specific instances of drug use in the Bible; if it is mentioned, it is under a different name than marijuana or cannabis (hemp isn&#039;t mentioned either).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Given my lack of investigation, I will only offer the following principles regarding using marijuana, since hard rules would require further study to formulate:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Marijuana is a pretty mild drug. I myself have used it a few times in my pre-Christian days. It is arguably much less negative a drug than alcohol, and we know that alcohol is by no means prohibited in Scripture. Quite the contrary: the Lord&#039;s supper consists of bread and &lt;i&gt;wine&lt;/i&gt;, which by definition is an alcoholic drink. Wine was in biblical times, as it is now, a common element of social dining, and Jesus&#039; first miracle was turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana (John 2).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, the Bible is also clear in condemning the overuse of alcohol: ie, it teaches against drunkeness. Proverbs 23:20 instructs us to &quot;be not among drunkards&quot;, and the Hebrew phrase can be literally translated &quot;those who drink &lt;i&gt;too much&lt;/i&gt; wine.&quot; Obviously, the problem is not with drinking the wine itself, but with the quantity. We can therefore conclude that drinking with the sensual intent of becoming drunk is sinful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So similarly, Paul writes in Romans 13:12-14:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As with those who over-indulge in drink, it seems reasonable to say that those who take marijuana recreationally are doing so in order to provoke a sensual reaction within themselves. They are indulging their flesh. Now obviously there are those who take marijuana for medical reasons, and if there truly is a legitimate instance where marijuana is the best treatment then that ought to be evaluated differently. But by and large, in my own experience at least, marijuana is not taken in the same way that wine can be taken at a dinner without anyone becoming drunk; rather, the point of marijuana is similar to the point of drinking to excess: to evoke an altered state of mind. This certainly is sinful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But even if this is not the case, consider the impression that marijuana creates. Any drugs tend to be associated with the less savory element of society; and with unbiblical ideologies (notably hippie-type movements), and with sensuality, violence, and crime. In spiritual arenas they are also most certainly associated with rituals which are easily described as Satanic (such as, for example, Native American vision quests). Given the strongly negative stigma attached to drugs, and the exhortation to not conform ourselves to the world, but to be a light to it, we must take seriously our approach to drugs. Even if you believe there is biblical leeway for taking marijuana, you must consider first the impression it will give others. Remember Paul&#039;s advice: &quot;It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; that causes your brother to stumble&quot; (Rom 14:21); and, &quot;Therefore, if food [or anything, we may surmise] makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble&quot; (1 Cor 8:13).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is important to take into account the effect your actions can have on other Christians, or even on non-Christians to whom you are witnessing. Although you might find some leeway in the Bible, and in your conscience, for taking marijuana, the proper approach is not to tread as close to sin as possible without crossing the line (that would result in legalism such as evidenced by the Pharisees). Rather, you should stay as far from sin as possible, so that no one could possibly accuse you, justified or not; and so that no one can be caused to stumble.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Remember also that all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. We should not be enslaved by anything (1 Cor 6:12). Drugs of any kind can be addictive (marijuana not generally physically, but certainly psychologically). We should least of all, then, be enslaved to something which is largely stigmatized and considered unquestionably sinful by most Christians. So although all things are lawful, remember that not all things build up. &quot;Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor&quot; (1 Cor 10:23-24).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hopefully this offers a brief perspective on the biblical principles you should be applying in making a decision regarding marijuana use. If it is you yourself who is using it, or thinking of using it, I would personally advise against it, because it is at best morally suspect, will likely cause other Christians to stumble, and will weaken your own testimony in the eyes of non-believers. If it is another Christian, perhaps they may find this post helpful if you show it to them. Or, if it is an unbeliever, remember that taking marijuana is among the least of their sins!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regards in Christ,&lt;br /&gt;Bnonn</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jen&#8212;</p>
<p>To better understand what I said above, I&#8217;d recommend reading the three series stapled in the sidebar. They lay a fair bit of groundwork which will help to answer questions you may have. I&#8217;m sure they will in turn provoke more questions, as  they&#8217;re by no means comprehensive, so feel free to ask for clarification where necessary.</p>
<p>Regarding marijuana, I haven&#8217;t studied this issue in much depth, so I can&#8217;t give you a fully-formulated answer. I&#8217;m not familiar with any specific instances of drug use in the Bible; if it is mentioned, it is under a different name than marijuana or cannabis (hemp isn&#8217;t mentioned either).</p>
<p>Given my lack of investigation, I will only offer the following principles regarding using marijuana, since hard rules would require further study to formulate:</p>
<p>Marijuana is a pretty mild drug. I myself have used it a few times in my pre-Christian days. It is arguably much less negative a drug than alcohol, and we know that alcohol is by no means prohibited in Scripture. Quite the contrary: the Lord&#8217;s supper consists of bread and <i>wine</i>, which by definition is an alcoholic drink. Wine was in biblical times, as it is now, a common element of social dining, and Jesus&#8217; first miracle was turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana (John 2).</p>
<p>However, the Bible is also clear in condemning the overuse of alcohol: ie, it teaches against drunkeness. Proverbs 23:20 instructs us to &#8220;be not among drunkards&#8221;, and the Hebrew phrase can be literally translated &#8220;those who drink <i>too much</i> wine.&#8221; Obviously, the problem is not with drinking the wine itself, but with the quantity. We can therefore conclude that drinking with the sensual intent of becoming drunk is sinful.</p>
<p>So similarly, Paul writes in Romans 13:12-14:</p>
<p><i>The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.</i></p>
<p>As with those who over-indulge in drink, it seems reasonable to say that those who take marijuana recreationally are doing so in order to provoke a sensual reaction within themselves. They are indulging their flesh. Now obviously there are those who take marijuana for medical reasons, and if there truly is a legitimate instance where marijuana is the best treatment then that ought to be evaluated differently. But by and large, in my own experience at least, marijuana is not taken in the same way that wine can be taken at a dinner without anyone becoming drunk; rather, the point of marijuana is similar to the point of drinking to excess: to evoke an altered state of mind. This certainly is sinful.</p>
<p>But even if this is not the case, consider the impression that marijuana creates. Any drugs tend to be associated with the less savory element of society; and with unbiblical ideologies (notably hippie-type movements), and with sensuality, violence, and crime. In spiritual arenas they are also most certainly associated with rituals which are easily described as Satanic (such as, for example, Native American vision quests). Given the strongly negative stigma attached to drugs, and the exhortation to not conform ourselves to the world, but to be a light to it, we must take seriously our approach to drugs. Even if you believe there is biblical leeway for taking marijuana, you must consider first the impression it will give others. Remember Paul&#8217;s advice: &#8220;It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do <i>anything</i> that causes your brother to stumble&#8221; (Rom 14:21); and, &#8220;Therefore, if food [or anything, we may surmise] makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble&#8221; (1 Cor 8:13).</p>
<p>It is important to take into account the effect your actions can have on other Christians, or even on non-Christians to whom you are witnessing. Although you might find some leeway in the Bible, and in your conscience, for taking marijuana, the proper approach is not to tread as close to sin as possible without crossing the line (that would result in legalism such as evidenced by the Pharisees). Rather, you should stay as far from sin as possible, so that no one could possibly accuse you, justified or not; and so that no one can be caused to stumble.</p>
<p>Remember also that all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. We should not be enslaved by anything (1 Cor 6:12). Drugs of any kind can be addictive (marijuana not generally physically, but certainly psychologically). We should least of all, then, be enslaved to something which is largely stigmatized and considered unquestionably sinful by most Christians. So although all things are lawful, remember that not all things build up. &#8220;Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor&#8221; (1 Cor 10:23-24).</p>
<p>Hopefully this offers a brief perspective on the biblical principles you should be applying in making a decision regarding marijuana use. If it is you yourself who is using it, or thinking of using it, I would personally advise against it, because it is at best morally suspect, will likely cause other Christians to stumble, and will weaken your own testimony in the eyes of non-believers. If it is another Christian, perhaps they may find this post helpful if you show it to them. Or, if it is an unbeliever, remember that taking marijuana is among the least of their sins!</p>
<p>Regards in Christ,<br />Bnonn</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/on-deconversion/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 04:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=12#comment-14</guid>
		<description>Hi Bnonn,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just researching different views of Christianity and came across your comments to theresa on &quot;debunking Christianity&quot;.  I really like what you said, although I didn&#039;t quite understand all of it because I&#039;m obviously not as well educated as you. I believe in Jesus, but I do admit, sometimes I think I might be crazy, and just talking to my four walls.  Since you seem to know so much about the Bible and Christianity, I as a Christian am wondering what you think of marijuana usage and do you know of any reference to it in the Bible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bnonn,</p>
<p>Just researching different views of Christianity and came across your comments to theresa on &#8220;debunking Christianity&#8221;.  I really like what you said, although I didn&#8217;t quite understand all of it because I&#8217;m obviously not as well educated as you. I believe in Jesus, but I do admit, sometimes I think I might be crazy, and just talking to my four walls.  Since you seem to know so much about the Bible and Christianity, I as a Christian am wondering what you think of marijuana usage and do you know of any reference to it in the Bible?</p>
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