Comments on: Where were the Christians before the Reformation? http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/ developing the mind of Christ Sun, 11 Dec 2011 00:12:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Dominic Bnonn Tennant http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1332 Dominic Bnonn Tennant Wed, 02 Mar 2011 20:54:09 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1332 John, I'm embarrassed for you. You seem incapable of actually arguing for any position. You just make these laughable assertions as if I should accept them on your own authority. If you're Catholic, I suppose that makes sense. Either way, don't post here again unless you are going to argue for the statements that you make. John, I’m embarrassed for you. You seem incapable of actually arguing for any position. You just make these laughable assertions as if I should accept them on your own authority. If you’re Catholic, I suppose that makes sense. Either way, don’t post here again unless you are going to argue for the statements that you make.

]]> By: John http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1331 John Wed, 02 Mar 2011 10:39:20 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1331 1. If you're incapable of even narrowing it down to 500 years, what makes you think you are qualified for anybody to be paying any attention to you whatsoever? You should hand in your bloggers license. 2. Both the substance and the credibility of your position is affected by your ability to provide a window. If it turns out you really don't think there were many Christians since the year 150, then your position is certainly made clear. 3. If you're going to comment on Eastern Orthodoxy, then you should be prepared to substantiate it. Obviously you can't, so you ought to cease and desist. 4. This is your blog, and therefore your responsibility to substantiate whatever positions you decide to enunciate. 1. If you’re incapable of even narrowing it down to 500 years, what makes you think you are qualified for anybody to be paying any attention to you whatsoever? You should hand in your bloggers license.

2. Both the substance and the credibility of your position is affected by your ability to provide a window. If it turns out you really don’t think there were many Christians since the year 150, then your position is certainly made clear.

3. If you’re going to comment on Eastern Orthodoxy, then you should be prepared to substantiate it. Obviously you can’t, so you ought to cease and desist.

4. This is your blog, and therefore your responsibility to substantiate whatever positions you decide to enunciate.

]]> By: Dominic Bnonn Tennant http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1330 Dominic Bnonn Tennant Tue, 01 Mar 2011 00:36:14 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1330 John, you're not making sense. 1. Why exactly do you think you "deserve" a 500 year window? In what way am I obligated to give you such a thing? I gave an upper limit for when the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches could no longer be considered Christian. How does that bind me to providing a lower limit? Or a window of any kind? 2. How is my upper limit invalidated if I don't provide a window? If I have enough historical knowledge to give an upper limit, but not enough to give a lower limit? You're implying that my inability to give a lower limit entails my inability to give an upper limit. How? 3. Why should I care if you have confidence in my impartiality towards the Eastern Orthodox? If you don't know what the EOC teaches about salvation, and the ways in which that contradicts the gospel, then go and educate yourself. That's not my responsibility, and it's not a focus of this post. 4. If you want to contest that these churches had vacated the gospel of grace by the time of the Reformation, then you'll need to actually argue for your position instead of casting these nonsensical aspersions. John, you’re not making sense.

1. Why exactly do you think you “deserve” a 500 year window? In what way am I obligated to give you such a thing? I gave an upper limit for when the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches could no longer be considered Christian. How does that bind me to providing a lower limit? Or a window of any kind?

2. How is my upper limit invalidated if I don’t provide a window? If I have enough historical knowledge to give an upper limit, but not enough to give a lower limit? You’re implying that my inability to give a lower limit entails my inability to give an upper limit. How?

3. Why should I care if you have confidence in my impartiality towards the Eastern Orthodox? If you don’t know what the EOC teaches about salvation, and the ways in which that contradicts the gospel, then go and educate yourself. That’s not my responsibility, and it’s not a focus of this post.

4. If you want to contest that these churches had vacated the gospel of grace by the time of the Reformation, then you’ll need to actually argue for your position instead of casting these nonsensical aspersions.

]]> By: John http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1329 John Mon, 28 Feb 2011 22:33:29 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1329 By the reformation eh. Well, I think we deserve at least... oh say a 500 year window here surely. Does that mean the Orthodox church was ok in the year 1000? If you can't narrow it down even within such a big window as this, then you are hardly qualified to be talking about it. You make a lot of effort to fit James into your theology, even though a cursory reading would have it contradict you. So how do we know you give Orthodox the same courtesy? Give us some reason to have confidence in your impartiality in this matter. By the reformation eh. Well, I think we deserve at least… oh say a 500 year window here surely. Does that mean the Orthodox church was ok in the year 1000? If you can’t narrow it down even within such a big window as this, then you are hardly qualified to be talking about it.

You make a lot of effort to fit James into your theology, even though a cursory reading would have it contradict you. So how do we know you give Orthodox the same courtesy? Give us some reason to have confidence in your impartiality in this matter.

]]> By: Dominic Bnonn Tennant http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1328 Dominic Bnonn Tennant Mon, 28 Feb 2011 01:41:30 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1328 John, I already stated that the Roman and Orthodox churches had left behind the gospel by the time of the Reformation. So that is a date by which I can certainly say these churches were not Christian. I can't narrow it down further given what I know of historical comparative theology (which is not my field of study). Does that mean I am full of hot air? If so, why? As regards the Orthodox trusting exclusively in the work of Christ, yes, I know this from statements the Orthodox make. Am I interpreting them correctly? I don't know—am I interpreting <em>you</em> correctly? Are <em>you</em> interpreting <em>me</em> correctly? Are you really trumpeting skepticism? If you'd searched my blog before posting, you'd know I've written on the issue of faith and works in James. John, I already stated that the Roman and Orthodox churches had left behind the gospel by the time of the Reformation. So that is a date by which I can certainly say these churches were not Christian.

I can’t narrow it down further given what I know of historical comparative theology (which is not my field of study). Does that mean I am full of hot air? If so, why?

As regards the Orthodox trusting exclusively in the work of Christ, yes, I know this from statements the Orthodox make. Am I interpreting them correctly? I don’t know—am I interpreting you correctly? Are you interpreting me correctly? Are you really trumpeting skepticism? If you’d searched my blog before posting, you’d know I’ve written on the issue of faith and works in James.

]]> By: John http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1327 John Mon, 28 Feb 2011 00:33:55 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1327 Just because you can't identify an exact date, doesn't mean you shouldn't be held accountable to provide a date by which you can certainly say these churches were not Christian. I mean, are we talking about 2nd century, or 18th century? If you can't even narrow it down at all, you're just full of hot air. As for whether Orthodox "trust exclusively in the work of Christ for their salvation", how are you going to know that? Is it by the statements Orthodox make? Are you interpreting them correctly? Would you have accused the author of James in the bible of the same problem if you simplistically interpret what he said? Just because you can’t identify an exact date, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be held accountable to provide a date by which you can certainly say these churches were not Christian. I mean, are we talking about 2nd century, or 18th century? If you can’t even narrow it down at all, you’re just full of hot air.

As for whether Orthodox “trust exclusively in the work of Christ for their salvation”, how are you going to know that? Is it by the statements Orthodox make? Are you interpreting them correctly? Would you have accused the author of James in the bible of the same problem if you simplistically interpret what he said?

]]> By: Scott Windsor http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1326 Scott Windsor Thu, 24 Feb 2011 05:16:47 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1326 Actually, I will admit in your article that you're not definitively saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy were never Christian - and the implication is that at one time they WERE Christian, but that at some point prior to Luther, et al, (by your view) they became so corrupt that they could no longer be called Christian. Godspeed, Scott<<< Actually, I will admit in your article that you’re not definitively saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy were never Christian – and the implication is that at one time they WERE Christian, but that at some point prior to Luther, et al, (by your view) they became so corrupt that they could no longer be called Christian.

Godspeed,
Scott<<<

]]> By: Dominic Bnonn Tennant http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1325 Dominic Bnonn Tennant Thu, 24 Feb 2011 05:15:14 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1325 Scott, your question is like asking when enough grains of sand become a heap. Like all Catholics, you have this idea that it's reasonable to call the church of, say, 700 AD the "Catholic" Church in the same way you call the Roman Church of 2011 the "Catholic" Church. Sorry, but I just deny that claim as obviously false. Scott, your question is like asking when enough grains of sand become a heap. Like all Catholics, you have this idea that it’s reasonable to call the church of, say, 700 AD the “Catholic” Church in the same way you call the Roman Church of 2011 the “Catholic” Church.

Sorry, but I just deny that claim as obviously false.

]]> By: Scott Windsor http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1324 Scott Windsor Thu, 24 Feb 2011 05:07:30 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1324 Dominic, While you did provide rationalizations - what is clear is that you're avoiding dealing with the meat of the thesis. Were the Catholic and Orthodox churches at one time, by your standard, to be considered "Christian?" If so, when did these churches cease to be "Christian," again, in your view? It appears you're avoiding a direct answer because (IMHO) you do not want to admit Catholics and Orthodox were EVER "Christians." Yet, once you state Catholics and Orthodox were never "Christians" - you leave a HUGE hole in the history of the Christian Church - one which no amount of rationalization can fill. I challenge you to study history a bit more objectively and consider what it means to be a Catholic and see if you have a bit of a change of heart in your position. If the Holy Ghost so moves you - I believe you will soften your heart. Scott<<< Dominic,
While you did provide rationalizations – what is clear is that you’re avoiding dealing with the meat of the thesis. Were the Catholic and Orthodox churches at one time, by your standard, to be considered “Christian?” If so, when did these churches cease to be “Christian,” again, in your view? It appears you’re avoiding a direct answer because (IMHO) you do not want to admit Catholics and Orthodox were EVER “Christians.” Yet, once you state Catholics and Orthodox were never “Christians” – you leave a HUGE hole in the history of the Christian Church – one which no amount of rationalization can fill. I challenge you to study history a bit more objectively and consider what it means to be a Catholic and see if you have a bit of a change of heart in your position. If the Holy Ghost so moves you – I believe you will soften your heart.

Scott<<<

]]> By: Dominic Bnonn Tennant http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/where-were-the-christians-before-the-reformation/#comment-1323 Dominic Bnonn Tennant Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:13:28 +0000 http://bnonn.thinkingmatters.org.nz/?p=1258#comment-1323 Scott, I made my reasons for not answering this question quite clear. Scott, I made my reasons for not answering this question quite clear.

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