again, thank you for your kindness and clarity.

But I pray thee tell, where do you see that that is my intent?

No, rather, I was swinging open wide the doors of the “Church” house so that “after” the work of partaking of the Sacraments, which is indeed a Work of Faith too, we would promptly walk through those doors in the Name of the Lord and help out the poor as Our Dear Lord said:

Mat 26:1 When Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said to his disciples,
Mat 26:2 “You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”
Mat 26:3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas,
Mat 26:4 and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him.
Mat 26:5 But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.”
Mat 26:6 Now when Jesus was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,
Mat 26:7 a woman came up to him with an alabaster flask of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head as he reclined at table.
Mat 26:8 And when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste?
Mat 26:9 For this could have been sold for a large sum and given to the poor.”
Mat 26:10 But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to me.
Mat 26:11 For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me.
Mat 26:12 In pouring this ointment on my body, she has done it to prepare me for burial.
Mat 26:13 Truly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will also be told in memory of her.”

There is a work of Faith, “baptism” and the “partaking of the Sacraments” administered within the House of the Lord and then there is that more confrontational work upon our own soul, that is, the “work” of Faith that follows outside the House of the Lord into the world and it is to that I would point then, the next in line works by Faith, in the line of the “order” of things that the “Work” James speaks about gets us to doing:

Mar 16:15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Mar 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.]]

Our dear brother Paul said as much about the “Works” of Faith this way and it should be our way of teaching too:

Php 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me–practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

Both these Apostles understood that Faith without works is “dead” Faith.

We must be baptised and partakers of the Sacraments. How does that happen. Well consider this here and I do believe James was of this band of Apostles?,:

Act 4:32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.
Act 4:33 And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold
Act 4:35 and laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.

We must then take that work of Faith and go into the world with the “God of Peace” leading the way as we read about Philip here:

Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”

I can and will gladly continue reasoning with you Bnonn if that there was not clarification enough for my intent and meaning of our Faith and Works that follow the Faith once delivered to the Saints, me too, that is, the meaning within my posts?

michael

Regards,
Bnonn

this morning in the “place” of prayer and praying, this came to me to post in here the best “two” examples of your lesson from James 2, faith with and faith without works.

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.
Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
Act 16:15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
Act 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling.
Act 16:17 She followed Paul and us, crying out, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.”
Act 16:18 And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.
Act 16:19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

As you read these verses we are looking at two women, Lydia and the slave girl.

Look at the “faith” of each, Lydia and the slave girl.

Both “knew” both who Paul is and who Christ is by Faith.

But to Lydia, by her or rather “His” gift of “Faith” working in her life she received, produced the consequence of the Gift of Faith working in her, Salvation.

But to the slave girl, her or rather the same “Faith” as Lydia, but “imparted” into her by a “spirit of divination” i.e. a demon, her “faith”’s consequence was quite different.

Faith without Works, or in this case what I am putting forth here is the works of “the Gift of Faith” is the partaking of the Sacraments, which by so taking we are doing “the works” of Faith, that is coming into obedience to Christ by believing what He said then do, “take eat”, this is my “Body”, “take drink”, this is the “New Covenant” in my Blood results in and as the consequence of the Faith delivered to us, which is: the “Salvation” of our soul.

Michael

Remember that the demons “believe”.

What they do not do is take the Sacraments as we, Christ’s Body are commanded to take:

Mat 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”
Mat 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you,
Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mat 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Luk 22:14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luk 22:16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
Luk 22:17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves.
Luk 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

Indeed the demons believe and shudder remembering that event!

Michael

Hi,

I don’t understand my computer. I just discovered that I have to click on your banner to come to current time and date.

Anyway, this is an interesting goings on in here.

Would you touch on my statement as your sharp sword is hardened and can sharpen mine!

Saving Faith has “works” attached to it.

Saving Faith=Christ’s death, burial and resurrection.

Works+Saving Faith=Christ in me, the Hope of Glory.

It’s God’s Faith Christ did for us on the cursed tree.

That death is the “Works” which hopefully we all realizes is the only Works of Saving Faith, Christ’s Faith, dying on the cursed tree.

So James is saying, it’s Christ’s Faith and it is Christ’s Work.

I and you and “all” the Gift of Faith is given to by the Gift of Grace, God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are saved by Works, His not ours.

Faith without Works indeed is dead just like a person without a spirit, soul and body in there flesh is just a decomposing mass of drying up dirt.

So, for me, taking the Sacraments is all the “works” I need to join me to Saving Faith.

Ok, that’s a mouth full and I suppose you will unpack it for us too?

Michael

By the way, the flesh, have you studied those “parts” in Job?

Look at Job seven. Wow, I see all the parts, spirit, soul, body and flesh. Also the heart and mind too.

First, yes, it says that Abraham was justified by works. But what is the context of this statement? Is James using the word “justified” in the same way that Paul is? Is he saying that Abraham’s works actually contributed to his redemption; that they added to the work of Christ? It certainly doesn’t look that way when you consider how James is talking about faith itself. He is counting the works as a part of faith. I don’t know how to say this any more clearly. The works he is talking about here are encapsulated in the phrase “and Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness”.

What justified Abraham, so that he was counted righteous, according to James? Was it his works? If you take verse 21 by itself then yes. But if you actually read the whole passage and see how verse 21 is explained by the verses following, we discover that it was his belief. Jim, James is not trying to explain the nature of justification. Unlike Paul, he isn’t concerned with showing that works are useless to save us, and that justification is by faith alone. In fact, his topic is the exact opposite: he is concerned with people who think that because justification is by faith alone, works are useless altogether! He is correcting them, showing that works are a part of saving faith just as the spirit is part of a living body. Does that mean the works themselves count toward our righteousness; that they add to the work of Christ? Well, does my spirit being part of my living body mean that I am typing these words with my spirit? Only inasmuch as the action is mediated through my body. But could I type without it? Of course not. So you see that a person must type by the spirit as well as by the body. Tell me though, Jim, when I say that, do you think I mean that my spirit itself does the typing?

I didn’t think so. So why are you having such difficulty with James’ meaning?

Secondly, your equation is all shot to hell. You are trying to infer that, since “a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”, and since “faith” here obviously is referring to non-saving faith, it must be the case that a person is justified by works + non-saving faith. But again, James is drawing a distinction between the faith that even demons have, and the faith that saved Christians have. He is saying that a person is justified by a faith which produces works, and not by an intellectual apprehension alone. I admit that his highly ambiguous use of the term “faith” is confusing, because we are accustomed, in modern systematic theology, to having it mean “saving faith”. But quite obviously that is not how James uses it. He uses it to describe an intellectual apprehension of the facts of the gospel. This does not save. However, an intellectual apprehension which leads to works, that is, the fruit of the gospel—that faith does save. Again, the whole of James’ letter is presupposing justification by faith alone, but it is explaining the nature of that faith which justifies. It is acknowledging that one can believe, as the demons do, and call this faith—but this faith does not save. Only faith which produces works can save. Only intellectual apprehension + resulting works = belief counted as righteousness.

Thirdly, verse 14 states in the Greek, “can the faith save him?” There is a definite article, but it is not confined to a singular meaning as the word “the” is in English. In the context of James’ question, it is quite accurate to translate it as “can that faith save him” or “can such faith save him” (NIV).

I honestly don’t know how much more clearly I can explain any of this Jim. If you start with the presupposition that James is at odds with Paul, you will find ways to make it so. If you start with the presupposition that he really believes works contribute to our redemption, the verses which you have already quoted will jump out of the page and will not fall into their natural place in the larger passage, and so you will be unable to harmonize them with the rest of Scripture. And you can read James that way, and it can still make a semblance of sense. You won’t notice that you are mangling James’ words, just as Arminians don’t notice that they are mangling Paul’s words when they interpret “election” as something passive which God applies to us after we actually elect ourselves. But if you start with the presupposition that James is harmonious with Scripture, as you should, and make an effort to carefully work through the meaning of his words, you will find that not only does what he says make a lot more sense, and agree with Paul, but that he himself presupposes throughout his discussion that we are saved by faith alone. He is not trying to correct his readers and tell them that they are saved by works (especially not works of the law). He is trying to correct his readers and tell them that the faith by which they are saved—notice the presupposition that faith saves—is a living faith which produces fruit. How is that any different to what Paul says, what Jesus says, what the whole Bible says?

Regards,
Bnonn

So a non saving faith + works = justification.

No where does James even suggest that a man can be justified by faith alone. As a matter of fact just the opposite – he asked can “faith” save? Of course the answer is no.

BTW you quoted “can that faith save him?”

“that” is memory serves is not in the greek – the King James rightly leaves it out.

I wish I had more computer time… Jim…

It is really quite clear that James believes that Abraham was saved by faith, because he says that faith was “completed” by his works. In other words, the works began from faith, and in fact made that faith genuine, so that the Scripture was fulfilled that Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. Imagine if Abraham had said, “Okay, I believe you God. I believe that I will have a son of my own”—but then he had gone out and adopted a bunch of sons just in case. Would he really have believed God then? No, of course not. His works would show that his faith was not genuine. But instead, he acted in accordance with his belief, thus showing that he really did believe, and so his faith was “completed”. His works did not justify him, but the faith which produced them did, and they are inseparable from that faith. They are one whole; a totality. The works do not contribute to redemption in the sense of earning anything, but they are part of the faith which does contribute to redemption. That is the point that James is trying to make. He really does think that faith alone saves; he just doesn’t think that saving faith is ever alone.

Regards,
Bnonn

“non-saving faith and works save”

Don’t you get it? James does not believe that faith can save, even the genuine faith of Abraham.